Jump to content

Are Carver Pre-Amps worth purchasing


Recommended Posts

Thanks for information on 'welcome wagon' Balok.Iam first time poster and buyer of a Carver product, Just imported a SD/A-410 to Scotland. U.K. And want to try and purchase a M-400 in the future,which I heard in the mid 80s and left an impression. I am interested in seeing if I could get some any information on the Carver pre-amps for phono stage for future purchase. I know of

BillD and upgrades and pre-amps C-1,C-11,C-16 from what I have read.Just wondering if Carver pre-amps are a thing to consider in a mid range vinyl setup.Excited about

being part of the Carver family and getting some of this amazing equipment to Scotland.

Joey

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Absolutely Joey.
 
With your affinity for tubes, you may be interested particularly in the  C-19 vacuum tube reference preamp.
 
Image result for carver c-19 preamplifier
 
 Carver C19 Hybrid Reference Preamp
 
 
 
 
 
And another tubed preamp option:
 
Not sure of your price range but Bob also has a nice product in the Sunfire Vacuum tube model.  The one's with phono outputs can be a little difficult to find but they do surface now and again.  Gotta love the glow of dem' tubes!   
 
Again, welcome aboard.  Beer!
 
Classic Vacumm Tube Preamplifier
 
 Image result for sunfire vacuum tube preamp
Related image
 
 
 
Regardless, you have come to the right place as you will get some great advice here with many options to pursue. 
  • Thank You 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Howdy Joey and welcome to the forum. Nice to have you on board. Please tell us more about yourself, your past and current audio systems, and your taste in music. If you have system photos you can post them in Member's Systems.
 
As for Carver preamps, it's hard to beat the MM/MC phono circuits in a BillD-modified C-1/C-11. Here's a quote from Bill Dibble's original C-1 upgrade thread. (Sadly Bill passed away in 2012, however, many CS members continue to do these mods as a tribute.)
 
A little more information on the upgrade and the topology of the C-1.  There are a number of RC4136N (4136) quad op-amps in the C-1.  Five of them (IC1 — IC5) implement the Sonic Holography circuit, and I've never touched them because I don't know enough about the circuit to determine if a change would produce any difference.
 
The phono section is built with two differential amplifiers (transistor pairs) ahead of a quad 4136 op-amp that  implement both the moving magnet (MM) and moving coil (MC) RIAA gain stages for both channels.  The idea of replacing the 4136 op-amp with a quieter one is not as critical as it used to be in the earlier C-4000 that didn't have the discrete differential amplifiers, but will improve the overall performance of your phono circuit.  Because the 4136 has a non-standard pin-out, adapters have been built that allow two smaller surface mount dual op-amps to be soldered onto a carrier that implements the non-standard 4136 pin-out, so that they can be placed in the same holes.
 
bd060601.jpg 
 
I chose the OPA2134 amp for its very low noise and overall performance as the best replacement.  Here's a picture of the one installed in RodH's C-1 phono section (IC6).
 
20110402111538767.jpg 
A more important consideration is IC7.  IC7 is the only op-amp in operation when all the selector buttons are disengaged, unless you are using the Phono section.  It is the heart of the preamp, and implement both the gain stage and the infrasonic filter (button on back).  Of course, it is a 4136, also.  Replacing this op-amp can have a dramatic impact on how your preamp sounds.  If you don't replace anything else, do this one!
 
IC8 implements the tone control for both channels and the muting circuit.  One amplifier in this quad 4136 remains unused.  If you use your tone controls extensively, it is probably a good idea to replace this amplifier, but I have no experience that if doing so improves anything.
 
IC9 implements the headphone amp for both channels.  I've never replaced in on a C-1, but I have used OPA2134s in another headphone amp that sounded pretty good.   Anyway, here's a link to the Brown Dog website where I purchase the pre-mounted 4136 replacements.
 
Regarding capacitors, I've built a table with current prices from Mouser for what I replace in a C-1.
 
Qty Description Manufacturer # Mouser # Spacing C-1 Component Cost Total
3 1µF 50V UPW1H010MDD1TD 647-UPW1H010MDD1TD 2 C32-33, C400 $0.12 $0.36
1 4.7µF 25V UPW1E4R7MDD 647-UPW1E4R7MDD 2 C401 $0.13 $0.13
10 22µF 16V NP UES1C220MEM 647-UES1C220MEM 2.5 C207, C213, C216, C217, C225,    
          C307, C313, C316, C317, C325 $0.31 $3.10
2 22µF 35V NP UES1V220MPM 647-UES1V220MPM 3.5 C13, C31 $0.34 $0.68
2 100µF 6.3V UKT0J101MDD 647-UKT0J101MDD 2 C204, C304 $0.12 $0.24
2 470µF 6.3V UKT0J471MPD 647-UKT0J471MPD 3.5 C209, C309 $0.27 $0.54
6 1000µF 25V UHE1E102MHD3 647-UHE1E102MHD3 7.5 C402-407 $0.67 $4.02
            Total $9.07
 
 Regarding the other upgrades, I try to use multi-layer 1% ceramic capacitors for the capacitance of your choice, and 1% metal film resistors.  Of course, I can substitute anything you'd like.

 
  • Thank You 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you Asian7 for that information on the C-19 & Sunfire Vacum Tubes, great to hear from you again.And and to Zumbini on The C-1,C-11 and info on my system to Post.Is Bobs Sunfire range a step up and more expensive than the Carver series.

Joey

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Functioning C-19's with good cosmetics sell for $800-900 but you can buy a C-1/C-11 for $250-350 or a C-6/C-16 (basically a C-19 without the tubed outputs) for $400-500 and run the outputs through a stand-alone tube buffer.
 
A stock Sunfire Vacuum Tube Control Center/preamp sells for around $1,000. Units with the optional phono section are so rare that I wouldn't be surprised to have to pay $1,800-2000 for one. Note that there are only two service shops I'd be comfortable sending a Sunfire to for repairs - Flannery's Vintage Audio Repair and Hi-Tech Audio, Ltd. - and both are in the US (Pacific Northwest).
  • Thank You 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you Zumbini for that most excellent info, great to have you around and what a Library of system Knowledge.I can't wait to get stuck in and find out more about the Carver rich tapestry of audio soundstage,starting with the pre-amps.Don't see much in the Uk, so having to import from North America.I have a retired electronics father-in- Law from England and a Canadian colleague audio repair specialist at hand. Carver will be a project for them and they should be able to do some upgrades.

Joey

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Welcome to CS, 19Joey81 !
 
A BillD C1/C11 is a wonderful cornerstone of a 2Channel system. You can also add a X10d clone and get some of the benefits of a Tube stage, if you choose to use C1/C11/C6/C16 (or any other) Carver pre.
  • Thank You 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for for input and welcome'loner_t',thats food for thought and will very interesting to research. From the US, I heard the Audio Research SP10 Preamp with the M-400, How does a

Carver pre compete and has anyone got any experience of these Preamps.

Joey

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 years ago at Carverfest, Bob told me he highly recommended the C-1 preamp with his tube amps. And for a 2 channel setup the c-1 or c-11 is very hard to beat!

 

In the future I think the bobfather is considering a new tube preamp but not much news on that yet!

 

BarryG

  • Thank You 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks 'Barryg'future looks bright. On the C1 sonic Holography circuit- Is this an sound effect that can be turned off. Is this a 3D sound stage effect and how does this affect the base.

Joey

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Welcome Joey81!! The C1 in a modest or even a high end system with the BillD mods is hard to beat without spending 1500 & and more GBP. What part of Scotland do you hale from? I had a house in Dunoon on Milton for about 20 years.
 
In any case sit back enjoy the company-glad to have you aboard.
 
20170726153609150.png 
 
 
  • Thank You 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites



From the US, I heard the Audio Research SP10 Preamp with the M-400, How does a
Carver pre compete and has anyone got any experience of these Preamps.
Joey
 
I have an AR LS5 MkII (no Phono stage, just line stage) Tube pre which uses 6922/6DJ8/7DJ8. I like the Pre. Another one to consider is a Threshold FET10 HL or a FET9e. Threshold is a Nelson Pass design. 

  • Thank You 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi guys, very greatful for your input- oldtexsdog can you believe the guy who got me into Carver lived in Danoon also, ex American naval homes.I and he, is Originally from Glasgow,sadly he has passed, so Iam left to continue the Carver fight.I am how living in beautiful highland Perthshire listening to glorious music.Hi,also to

Loner_t. The Threshold poweramp is what my guru upgraded to from the Carver M-400.For us in the UK the ARs and Threshold are very expensive new and S/H, so that's way I am thinking Carver, more sound for my really weak pound stirling at the moment.

Joey

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Welcome Joey. Glad to have you here. I have had the C1 and 4000T Carver preamps and enjoy them. The C1 is much easier to service and the BillD mods take it to another level from stock. As far as sonic performance it is a good value. Like Old Texas Dog was saying, you will need to spend around $1500 for a vintage pre that will show an improvement over a BillD.
 
The Sonic Hologram is a sound effect but it is based in science and is interesting to read about when you have time. Many of us are hooked on it and can't live without it.
 
SH can be turned on and off at will. 
  • Thank You 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Ar9jim for the info and your experience with Carver pre-amps. The Carver power amps in the UK are rated but the Pres are a bit of a mystery.A great day of talking to all you guys you have really made me feel welcome with some amazing info and I know this comes with sweat and tears. Hopefully you guys can keep the info coming as its now 1.30 am. I need to stop posting and listening to music and go to bed and dream of Carver heaven. Keep up the good fight guys.

Joey

Link to comment
Share on other sites



The Threshold poweramp is what my guru upgraded to from the Carver M-400.For us in the UK the ARs and Threshold are very expensive new and S/H, so that's way I am thinking Carver, more sound for my really weak pound stirling at the moment.
Joey
 
I am biased towards M500t, but also like the sound of TFM 42/45/55x.
 

  • Thank You 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

From my experience with both the C-1 and my current C-19 w/ C-9 sonic hologram unit I have heard no drop off in base response at all. The holography seems to put bass and drums center stage. Both have excellent phono inputs, though I prefer the phono on the C-19. Tubes do make a noticeable difference even though I use Silver 9T monoblocks.

  • Thank You 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Community Admin
Welcome Joey.  This is a great place to be. 
 
As all these great ideas flow in your own quest for OCCD (obsessive carver collecting disorder)..., something I noticed lately is that C-19's come up for sale more often in Europe, than in the US.  (My observation based on the places I look...)  (from your first post, it appears you are in Scotland?)
 
If a C-19 is your fancy, check out the search tool www.HiFiShark.com.   There is one listed now, in Austria.
 
(I realize that there's all kinds of tax implications getting something from one country to another - but these are rare.)
 
Again, Welcome to the party! 
 
  • Thank You 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi 'Andrewjohn' great to hear from you and thank you for the welcome and info on the C-19.

I have had a brilliant time this week with all the Carver family and the excellent information recieved has been amazing. It's great to know there are hi fi nuts over the water.Yes I Am in Scotland- great place to listen to music. I been to LA, USA-off and on for the last 20 years and love California.Got lots of friends and family out there and usually go to The Hollywood Bowl for concerts-Last one I went to was Steely Dan and Elvis Costello- I know music is in the very fabric of the North American DNA and looking forward to learning about the Carver way and expose it to my hi fi nutty friends here.

Joey

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Welcome to the party and enjoy your Carver journey! I'm curious about how you plan on powering your Carver gear. Did they make 220 models or do you have to use some power transformer to knock it down to 120?

 

PhilDent

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi to,Skip and to Phildent, thank you for the welcome,

to Power the SD/A-410 CD player I have a external voltage converter- a Mercury 110-120 USA-powered by from 230-240 Uk outlet. The CD is 10watts and the converter has a max of 45 watts. As for more preamps 100-200watts and poweramps 450watts,I have a Canadian colleague in Perth Scotland,who is an electronic audio repair specialist and vinyl nut who helps me with repairs and upgrades and gives me advice.And if anybody has any comments about voltage conversion with Carver Products ,would be welcome.

Joey

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some early Carver gear and most units sold at military exchanges are dual voltage. Check the service manual for yours.
 
Also, look inside the dust cover(s). My M-200t has voltage conversion instructions glued to the inside. 
20120314042912194.jpg 
 
 
  • Thank You 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

"I been to LA, USA-off and on for the last 20 years and love California.Got lots of friends and family out there and usually go to The Hollywood Bowl for concerts-Last one I went to was Steely Dan and Elvis Costello"
 
Joey,  I live in the LA area and I considered going to this concert, but I thought that I'd be disappointed by Steely Dan's live sound (which I believe is the reason they become primarily a studio band).  Their albums sound so good, I would be stunned if they could get anywhere close to it live.
 
best
PhilDent 
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Phildent, great to hear from you, I usually would be in LA for 6 weeks during our holidays seeing family but I have had a minor operation which has made me UK bound so that's why Iam getting as much knowledge of Carver equipment as this time. Love open air concerts- and have listened to Steely Dan since the mid 70s, often use their tracks as tests for audio setups. Brilliant music, great tests for hi fi. For years they didn't do any live gigs so amazing to see them and these guys were brilliant live, 11 plus band, great atmosphere, warm summer evening at the Hollywood Bowl would not wont to be anywhere else on the planet. A lot of these guys won't be around for every- seen the Eagles just before Glen Frey passed away.Seen Michael Jackson, but missed Bowie and Prince. Made sure recently that I seen some of my favourite artists- Richard Thompson, Van Morrison,Bryan Ferry, Jeff Lynne,Jean Michel Jarre and Jeff Waynes' war of the worlds.All brilliant concerts with fantastic music.As for Steely Dan,You missed a fantastic evening and they were as close to their recordings live than any other band I have heard live, maybe see you at the next gig.

Joey

  • Thank You 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...